Thread: The Fillmore Concerts vs. LAFE

Purplerocks - 12/25/2008 at 01:22 AM

How many of the tracks on "The Fillmore Concerts" are the same as "LAFE"? Are most from different nights? Tell me why I should purchase "The Fillmore Concerts" if I already know and love LAFE.
Thanks.


lespaul58 - 12/25/2008 at 01:26 AM

The Fillmore Concerts include One Way Out and an unedited Stormy Monday (harp solo). Others may have more info.


Haisija - 12/25/2008 at 01:38 AM

alos along with what LP58 said, FC has a different Hotlanta, Whipping Post intro is different, has Mountain Jam and Drunken Hearted Boy, Don't Keep Me Wondering, Trouble No More and One Way Out also. Solos have a slight difference on YDLM, some feedback is eliminated also at the end of a note. Shoulda left it.
Listen close to Hot Lanta you can hear a saxaphone on the decending run down from e to d flat.
Barry's opening bass line on At Fillmore East is quite a bit more intense and you get Duane chatter before Whipping Post on At Fillmore East.
FC has some other chatter before Hot Lanta.
Mountain Jam opening is missing on FC...but you do get Mountain Jam, same as on Eat a Peach.

More I'm sure I've missed.

So tracks that are the same are, Liz Reed ( other than some chatter at the end ) Statesboro Blues, Done Somebody Wrong....and actually those are the only 3 that are actually 100 % the same on AFE and the FC. ....I think I'm dizzy from this now.

[Edited on 12/25/2008 by Haisija]


BarrySmith - 12/25/2008 at 02:02 AM

The Fillmore Concerts also has Duane introducing the band members (after MOUNTAIN JAM i believe). At the end of DRUNKEN HEARTED BOY Duane says "that's all for tonight" and says that they recorded the entire show... "you're all on it. We won't send you no check but thanks for your help."


Zambi - 12/25/2008 at 02:54 AM

The bass is muffled or buried and the drums sound sorta flat on The Fillmore Concerts. If you're looking for the extra songs, then AFE Deluxe Edition is the better option, IMO. The Fillmore Concerts, in my view, is really only worth getting if you're a collector who has to have everything ever released by the ABB. Just my $0.02. YMMV.


chadwick011 - 12/25/2008 at 05:21 AM

quote:
I purchased Fillmore Concerts on the day of its release and equally quickly discarded it after realizing Duane's guitar is hopelessly burried in the mix.


That's true. When I first got into the Allman Brothers all we had around was the FC. I've always listened to it and love it, but I've heard some tracks off other releases on Pandora radio and I definitely like the way that they are mixed more. Zambi, I agree about the rhythm section, goes along with Duane in the mix, just not that great. Enough so that I plan on buying the original cd soon.


dougrhon - 12/25/2008 at 06:00 PM

You should not get the Fillmore Concerts. You should get AFE Deluxe. This has the same expanded track list as the Fillmore Concerts but with the original mix.


Stephen - 12/27/2008 at 05:55 PM

quote:
You should not get the Fillmore Concerts. You should get AFE Deluxe. This has the same expanded track list as the Fillmore Concerts but with the original mix.


Stuff like this is bothersome -- the ABB has repackaged & put out an incredible # of greatest hits/best ofs/compilations/box sets etc. -- they take the Fillmore album, repackage it as the Fillmore Concerts talking it up about how it's THE one to have -- and it ends up sounding like **** . Then they put out the deluxe edition that supposedly corrects the probem etc etc etc...there will be another in the future that they'll say is the best Fillmore East yet, you can be pretty sure of that
Just get the original Live At Fillmore East, and Eat A Peach, that's the best bet IMO


tonewoods - 12/27/2008 at 06:02 PM

quote:

Listen close to Hot Lanta you can hear a saxaphone on the decending run down from e to d flat.




I just noticed this the other day too....
So-ooo, could this version of Hot 'Lanta have been recorded the opening night--the evening with the horn section??

Man, they should just stick out the whole 3-night deal and let us decide what's "best"....


Zambi - 12/27/2008 at 06:48 PM

Well AFE Deluxe and The Fillmore Concerts aren't the same recordings with different mixes. They may have the same songs, but there are differences in the recordings as Haisija pointed out. That's why I say The Fillmore Concerts might be worth it to completists/collectors that have to have everything. But otherwise I agree that AFE Deluxe is the one to get.

As for all the various masters/remasters out there, I know this has been discussed to death around here but I'm still not sure what the correct answer is as to what versions are the "best" versions. I believe one rule of thumb mentioned here previously is that the "Capricorn Classics" versions are all very good, although those versions might not be in print anymore now that Capricorn II is out of business. But I would think that Polydor would still be using those versions just without the Capricorn name, except for the albums that have been released as "Deluxe" versions, which have been remastered yet again both in their original format and the extended "Deluxe" versions. I'm no expert though, and others here are who can (and hopefully will) chime in on which versions of which albums are the best on CD.


dougrhon - 12/27/2008 at 07:16 PM

quote:
Well AFE Deluxe and The Fillmore Concerts aren't the same recordings with different mixes. They may have the same songs, but there are differences in the recordings as Haisija pointed out. That's why I say The Fillmore Concerts might be worth it to completists/collectors that have to have everything. But otherwise I agree that AFE Deluxe is the one to get.

As for all the various masters/remasters out there, I know this has been discussed to death around here but I'm still not sure what the correct answer is as to what versions are the "best" versions. I believe one rule of thumb mentioned here previously is that the "Capricorn Classics" versions are all very good, although those versions might not be in print anymore now that Capricorn II is out of business. But I would think that Polydor would still be using those versions just without the Capricorn name, except for the albums that have been released as "Deluxe" versions, which have been remastered yet again both in their original format and the extended "Deluxe" versions. I'm no expert though, and others here are who can (and hopefully will) chime in on which versions of which albums are the best on CD.


My point is that AFE Deluxe restored the original mix.


jessica0717 - 12/27/2008 at 10:40 PM

quote:
You should not get the Fillmore Concerts. You should get AFE Deluxe. This has the same expanded track list as the Fillmore Concerts but with the original mix.


agreed. I have both and wish I had never bought the Fillmore Concerts just b/c I never listen to it. AFE Deluxe is the way to go. Get Eat a peach deluxe too if you don't have it.


musicalbeds - 12/27/2008 at 11:00 PM

For me, the deluxes are mostly worth owning for the bonus discs...I think you can find far better sounding pressings of LAFE and EAP....such as the MFSL gold discs. Just make a couple of CDRs of the two gold discs, add the few songs missing and voila; the best sounding "deluxe edition" available...imo.




[Edited on 12/27/2008 by musicalbeds]


Zambi - 12/28/2008 at 12:23 AM

quote:
My point is that AFE Deluxe restored the original mix.

And original recordings! Not trying to be a jerk about it, as re-reading my post I know it could've looked like I was calling you out on it or something. Not my intention. I was just trying to draw the distinction between different mixes (of the same recordings) and different recordings of different performances used on Fillmore Concerts. My point was that in addition to the mix of the same recordings being different on Fillmore Concerts, the actual recordings used in the mix on Fillmore Concerts were also different in a few songs than what appeared on AFE...i.e., different performances of the same song (or sections of the song) that appeared on the original AFE. Haisija pointed out most of those differences in his second post, and I believe one of the guitar solos in one of the songs on Fillmore Concerts was cut & spliced from a different performance of the same song from a different night at the Fillmore.

So if you really have to have every performance/recording of the ABB, then Fillmore Concerts might be a worthwhile addition to your collection along with AFE/AFE Deluxe.

But yeah, we're in 100% agreement that AFE Deluxe is the version to have.


Haisija - 12/28/2008 at 04:27 AM

quote:
quote:
You should not get the Fillmore Concerts. You should get AFE Deluxe. This has the same expanded track list as the Fillmore Concerts but with the original mix.


agreed. I have both and wish I had never bought the Fillmore Concerts just b/c I never listen to it. AFE Deluxe is the way to go. Get Eat a peach deluxe too if you don't have it.


Looks like I have to go out and get the AFE Deluxe version.


TopDroog - 12/28/2008 at 04:39 AM

I think with the Deluxe edition you get a "Midnight Rider," too, which does not appear on The Fillmore Concerts.


Haisija - 12/28/2008 at 04:42 AM

quote:
I think with the Deluxe edition you get a "Midnight Rider," too, which does not appear on The Fillmore Concerts.


OK...so now I definately go out and buy a festivus present for myself this week.


nypeachhead - 12/28/2008 at 04:56 AM

Great convo!

Another vote for the deluxe edition


D28guy - 12/28/2008 at 05:08 AM

Which "Hot Lanta" is on the Fillmore Deluxe version?

The original from the LP version, or the alternate with the sax on it?

Also, is the "Stormy Monday" on the Deluxe version the edited one or the full length one?


D

[Edited on 12/28/2008 by D28guy]


Shavian - 12/28/2008 at 01:25 PM

quote:
Which "Hot Lanta" is on the Fillmore Deluxe version?

The original from the LP version, or the alternate with the sax on it?

Also, is the "Stormy Monday" on the Deluxe version the edited one or the full length one?




The Stormy Monday on the De Luxe version is identical to the one on AFE. The Fillmore Concerts version is the same version with Thom Doucette's harmonica solo reinstated.

Hot Lanta on De Luxe is the same version as on AFE. There ain't no whiff of a sax!

With all the tinkering which has gone on, I'm surprised no-one has corrected Dickey's bum note on Mountain Jam (12.15 AFE De Luxe and EAP, 12.22 Fillmore Concerts)!




[Edited on 12/28/2008 by Shavian]


JMidnightrider - 12/28/2008 at 01:32 PM

quote:

Another vote for the deluxe edition
same here deluxe edition is so much better


axeman - 12/28/2008 at 02:58 PM

I have always wondered WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??? with the mix on The Fillmore Concerts. One of the worst mixes you could come up with. Duane is turned WAY down and all the instruments sound like they are playing in different rooms.

Someone earlier mentioned that they bought this album when it came out and quickly discarded it because of the mix. I did exactly the same thing. Huge disappointment. Don't buy it, burn it or bother with it.

[Edited on 12/28/2008 by axeman]


Haisija - 12/28/2008 at 04:13 PM

Hot Lanta on De Luxe is the same version as on AFE. There ain't no whiff of a sax!


I like the guitar solos much better by Duane and Dickey on the original LP than on TFC.
Gotta get Deluxe this week. Sheet, I was so confused by all these Fillmores...and the show which supposed to not exist.


PeachNutt - 12/28/2008 at 05:11 PM

Also, You Don't Love Me on the The Filllmore Concerts has a different 6minute intro....
It's the same one they used on the Quadronphonic mix way back when....
I was at the Thursday 3/11/71 'horns" show and was thrilled to see one song, Hot 'Lanta, included on the FE Concerts.....


griff - 12/28/2008 at 05:41 PM

The way I remember it, the "Live at the Fillmore East" was recorded outside using a recording truck. I believe the other Fillmore tapes are from the soundboard.


tonewoods - 12/28/2008 at 06:03 PM

quote:

I was at the Thursday 3/11/71 'horns" show and was thrilled to see one song, Hot 'Lanta, included on the FE Concerts.....


So-ooo, it sure would be nice if 3/11/71 escaped the vaults and circulated.....
I'd sure like to have a listen to that one just for grins...

What do you remember from that night, PeachNutt?
How prominent were the horns??
Were they soloing, or just adding pads like in Hot 'Lanta??

Oh, and do the 2 nights that AFE were mainly culled from circulate in their entirety in the bootleg community?


Edit: This is an interesting read: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=23081

[Edited on 12/28/2008 by tonewoods]


stormyrider - 12/28/2008 at 07:47 PM

Seems to me like they should release the whole entire run.
Also, if a tape of the 6/26 show would ever surface...


PeachNutt - 12/28/2008 at 08:52 PM

The 3/11 shows have a long history.....check Randy Poe's "Skydog" book.....
It was my first ABB show.....I remember a long slow song (I assume was Liz Reed).....
I think(?!?!?) there were three horn players, including a huge baritone sax.
Also thought I saw a bassoon on one song.....I would dearly love to hear the show too.....
Not sure if there were "horn" parts" or soloing, but hard to imagine the ABB not making room
for solos.
'll bet 6/26/71 would have surfaced a long time ago if it existed.......
I have both the FE Concerts, and the AFE Deluxe......
recommend that you all have both too.......HTN has 'em....


stormyrider - 12/28/2008 at 10:03 PM

yea, I'm sure that 6/26 would have surfaced by now. stranger things have happened though with GD tapes.

Looks like you answered my next question, I suspect I know the answer but will ask anyway -
I have LAFE on vinyl and FC on CD - is it worth it to get AFE deluxe too?


thedeadhead - 12/28/2008 at 11:11 PM

quote:
yea, I'm sure that 6/26 would have surfaced by now. stranger things have happened though with GD tapes.

Looks like you answered my next question, I suspect I know the answer but will ask anyway -
I have LAFE on vinyl and FC on CD - is it worth it to get AFE deluxe too?


Yes...I just received the deluxe edition and was completely blown away...


tonewoods - 12/29/2008 at 05:53 PM

Here's a blurb from that article I posted earlier:


"History documents that two shows each were performed on not only Friday, March 12th and Saturday, March 13th, the dates from which the bulk of the material was drawn but also Thursday, March 11th. If we consider the 13 songs making up At Fillmore East Deluxe Edition (the most complete document yet released) as an typical performance during this period, then there exists ostensibly 52 tracks of performances for March 12th and 13th, and 78 tracks if the March 11th shows are included.

This suggests a huge amount of unreleased material from a historically important period in American musical history."



I'm looking forward to the day that everything that is out there is released...
It's just the right thing to do.....


PeachNutt - 12/29/2008 at 06:42 PM

1. Yes, I would encourage you to buy the LAFE Deluxe as well.
Berry is spectacular - i think he benefits most from the Deluxe version.....
2. Re: 3/11/71 - According to Tom Dowd, the horns were out of tune and not miked properly (because he was not told the ABB would have horns sitting in) making the tapes unusable. I vaguley remember being told that the 3/11/71 Liz Reed was remixed for possible use somewhere, but it did not come to pass.
3. According to the Fillmore East Concerts booklet, these CD's includes a version of every
song the ABB played during those 3 nights, 3/11,12,13/71......

[Edited on 12/29/2008 by PeachNutt]


tonewoods - 12/29/2008 at 07:13 PM

quote:
According to the Fillmore East Concerts booklet, these CD's includes a version of every
song the ABB played during those 3 nights, 3/11,12,13/71......



Which is great news...

I remember there was speculation many years ago that the 11th might not have survived the "cut"...


RBK - 12/29/2008 at 07:19 PM

Arrrgh. I love the Fillmore Concerts, have the ABB@FE on Super Audio CD and NOW it sounds like I need the Deluxe Edition to boot!

Or not.


tonewoods - 12/29/2008 at 09:11 PM

quote:
Arrrgh. I love the Fillmore Concerts...



Yeah, I'll put in a huge vote for that release too....

I hadn't heard LAFE in many many years, and listening to the FC was like listening to the tapes for the first time...

I love Duane's rap after "Drunken Hearted Boy" ("hey man, it's 6 a.m.!"), the alternate "Hot Lanta", and lots of other little tidbits...

I guess I wouldn't buy it after reading this thread, but it's really worth a listen for fans, which we all are...


lonomon - 12/29/2008 at 09:21 PM

http://allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=v iewthread&tid=38156#pid881050

see verbal's (Kirk Wests) comments


PeachNutt - 12/30/2008 at 03:41 PM

So....do the Fillmore East 3/11/71 tapes still exist??
Do I???


stormyrider - 12/30/2008 at 06:32 PM

Bought AFE deluxe the other day - put it in, immediately felt more fire and energy than I remembered from TFC. i thought, maybe I think it sounds better cause I want it to sound better, so I did an A/B, even switched the cd players to make it equal. IMO the difference in the mix isn't subtle at all (at least on my stereo to my ears).
Glad I bought AFE deluxe - thanks for the recommendation.


langman - 12/31/2008 at 06:06 PM

just bought the DE.

we'll see...........


tonewoods - 12/31/2008 at 06:14 PM

quote:
IMO the difference in the mix isn't subtle at all (at least on my stereo to my ears).



In what way??

I listened to the FC on a drive the other day after reading this thread, and--as a recordist--asking myself how i would change the mix...

I dunno....
It sounded pretty damn good to me...

Everything was panned as you'd see the band, with Duane on the left and Dickie on the right...
Same with the 2 kits...

And everything sounded fine....

I think the key to that whole recording is the audience mics. They are a huge part of why that recording is so-ooo interesting to listen to ("play all night", etc.), and the mix is using those mics in all the right places--after solos, "you can put your hands together for this", etc....

It's just a great recording of a great band on a good night (or a few), and is really fun to listen to from a recordist's point of view...

Guess I need to hear the deluxe edition next....


mulebrother - 12/31/2008 at 06:16 PM

Here's a shout out for the DE of 'gimme back my bullets' by lynyrd skynyrd
album sounds GREAT and it comes with a DVD of the Old Grey Whistle test apperance in 1975...its outstanding.


But the DE of fillmore...wow...thats all i can say.
My son, who is 3, came in when i had hot lanta blaring. He stands there for a minute and says
'That cooks daddy'
Have not had a prouder moment as a father.


stormyrider - 12/31/2008 at 06:44 PM

quote:
quote:
IMO the difference in the mix isn't subtle at all (at least on my stereo to my ears).



In what way??

I listened to the FC on a drive the other day after reading this thread, and--as a recordist--asking myself how i would change the mix...

I dunno....
It sounded pretty damn good to me...

Everything was panned as you'd see the band, with Duane on the left and Dickie on the right...
Same with the 2 kits...

And everything sounded fine....

I think the key to that whole recording is the audience mics. They are a huge part of why that recording is so-ooo interesting to listen to ("play all night", etc.), and the mix is using those mics in all the right places--after solos, "you can put your hands together for this", etc....

It's just a great recording of a great band on a good night (or a few), and is really fun to listen to from a recordist's point of view...

Guess I need to hear the deluxe edition next....


the best I can describe it - more vibrant. You can hear Duane, Berry, the cymbals etc better and cripser. The recording just has more energy. Sorry I can't put it in more scientific terms (I'm just a former drummer)


Wayne - 12/31/2008 at 07:03 PM

For my ears after buying/listening to all 6 versions out there over the years, the MSFL gold 2 disc set of ABB Fillmore East still sounds the best, especially with headphones. You can pick out each player, where they are on stage, whether it is with headphones or sitting in front of the stereo. Also comes in a cool package with great info and pictures.

You can still buy it on ebay, not quite as pricey as it used to be. Glad I bought my copy when it was released, $50 seems like a good deal now.


axeman - 12/31/2008 at 10:34 PM

quote:
quote:
IMO the difference in the mix isn't subtle at all (at least on my stereo to my ears).



In what way??

I listened to the FC on a drive the other day after reading this thread, and--as a recordist--asking myself how i would change the mix...

I dunno....
It sounded pretty damn good to me...

Everything was panned as you'd see the band, with Duane on the left and Dickie on the right...
Same with the 2 kits...

And everything sounded fine....

I think the key to that whole recording is the audience mics. They are a huge part of why that recording is so-ooo interesting to listen to ("play all night", etc.), and the mix is using those mics in all the right places--after solos, "you can put your hands together for this", etc....

It's just a great recording of a great band on a good night (or a few), and is really fun to listen to from a recordist's point of view...

Guess I need to hear the deluxe edition next....



Honestly, I think your stereo might favor the "right side" over the "left". The Fillmore Concerts mix has Dickey FAR louder than Duane. Also, for lack of a better description, the instruments are far to "separated". I want to hear the band not six different instruments with the sixth, Duane, turned way down.

I have no idea what they were thinking with this mix. Awful.

[Edited on 12/31/2008 by axeman]


TonyTyler - 1/1/2009 at 08:24 AM

I like the story about Tom Dowd on the opening night, when they did Hotlanta, he said "GET THOSE FU*KING HORNS OUT OF MY LIFE!!"


woodsdweller - 1/1/2009 at 12:20 PM

Universal Music also did the "Deluxe Edition" treatment to "Eat a Peach" in 2006, and let me tell you it sounds awesome, plus you get the second bonus disc containing the previously unreleased June 27, 1971 Fillmore Concert (only Midnight Rider and One way Out from this concert were previously released). Well worth picking up. I hope they do a deluxe version of Brothers and Sisters someday.


PeachNutt - 1/1/2009 at 03:38 PM

More Allman Brothers material always makes me happy!!!
That would be a great way to start the 2009!!!


njpaulc - 1/1/2009 at 05:01 PM

Not to be the idiot cousin but

AFE = Allman Brothers at Fillmore East on Polydor

Fillmore Concerts "Chronicles" on Polydor

AFE Deluxe At the Fillmore on Mercury

I'm confused, is this right?

I was there for the Friday Early show, Thom Doucette was on harp. Randolph Carter's sax was so badly miked you couldn't hear him.

[Edited on 1/30/2009 by njpaulc]


Purplerocks - 1/30/2009 at 05:38 PM

I finally picked up a used copy of "The Fillmore Concerts" and I may actually prefer this mix. Dickey's guitar is much less harsh sounding and easier on my ears. Duane is plenty loud enough; some people seem to think he's buried in the mix?? You gotta be joking me. With the different mix it does give a somewhat different perspective; I dig both but this one sounds pretty damn sweet to me.


brofan - 1/30/2009 at 09:46 PM

quote:
I finally picked up a used copy of "The Fillmore Concerts" and I may actually prefer this mix. Dickey's guitar is much less harsh sounding and easier on my ears. Duane is plenty loud enough; some people seem to think he's buried in the mix?? You gotta be joking me. With the different mix it does give a somewhat different perspective; I dig both but this one sounds pretty damn sweet to me.


I think the drums are much more prominent on The FIllmore Concerts mix. Seems to me like I can hear a lot more stuff on TFC than I can on LAFE, other than "Play All Night" and 'Whipping Post!"

Blasphemy, I know....but just my 2 cents.


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