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Author: Subject: Poverty is our worst enemy

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 04:23 PM
quote:
quote:
Which country is it where poverty does not exist?


Some of the pundits here seem to think all except ours.


Ours in disproportionately higher than many others, though....but I gather by this thread that many people in the US don't have any problem with that and blame the poor for their demise. Pathetic.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 04:27 PM
quote:
How do you figure that the crime rates in London are worse than NYC? Maybe pickpocketing, or namecalling, but not violence.


I have not figured anything but stats have revealed exactly that.

Now, you you do allude to a fair point regarding violence. There is lots of crime in the UK but it rarely involves the high level of firearm usage seen in America. A mugger there is much more likely to rely on a knife which is of course less lethal than a gun.

If you want to spin some myth about a poverty free nation, you are better off using Sweden than the UK, MC3.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 04:29 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Which country is it where poverty does not exist?


Some of the pundits here seem to think all except ours.


Ours in disproportionately higher than many others, though....but I gather by this thread that many people in the US don't have any problem with that and blame the poor for their demise. Pathetic.

Well, I don't blame the poor for their demise, at least in the cases where it is not a result of bad choices, which I believe to be a fairly small percentage, though I have no data to back that up. But how many others are we disproprtionately higher than? I know someone here probably has that info, and I'd be curious to know where we rank in that area, using the same criteria to establish where that poverty line is.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 04:30 PM
quote:
but I gather by this thread that many people in the US don't have any problem with that and blame the poor for their demise. Pathetic.


I do not recall saying anything about who is to blame. And I certainly did not say I had no problem with it. I merely disputed some of your nonsense.

Poverty is a very expansive subject with lots of theories explaining it. If we knew for sure what caused it, we would not be having this discussion.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 04:40 PM
quote:
quote:
Which country is it where poverty does not exist?


Some of the pundits here seem to think all except ours.


Doug, I don't understand why you asked that question, since NO ONE said or implied that there is a country "where poverty does not exist". Nor do I understand KR's response referencing "pundits" and that ridiculous concluding statement. However, both Doug's question and KR's response sound just a little snide and insincere, which is too bad. I hope I am misreading the whole thing.

Anyway, to respond to the question, no one made a claim that poverty does not exist in any other nations. However, the rates in some other nations are far lower than the US. Furthermore, despite the constant reminders that people need to be "self sufficient" and work their way out of poverty, the US seems to have a special fondness for maintaining working people in conditions of poverty. At the same time, the inequities between "those with the most" and "those with little, to nothing" continue to grow as a result of social and economic policy conditions. A very few are really making out very well, in this time in history, at the expense of a great many.

Peace.

Erik





[Edited on 9/12/2005 by CEEJ]

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 05:15 PM
quote:
But how many others are we disproprtionately higher than? I know someone here probably has that info, and I'd be curious to know where we rank in that area, using the same criteria to establish where that poverty line is.
I posted a link with that information in my initial response to this thread. It is 1995 data:

Top three
Australia - 17.6 % poverty rate
UK - 15.7%
US - 13.6%

Low three
Sweden - 6.3%
Finland - 4.8%
Norway - 4.3%

Peace.

Erik





[Edited on 9/12/2005 by CEEJ]

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 06:20 PM
quote:
I posted a link with that information in my initial response to this thread. It is 1995 data:

Top three
Australia - 17.6 % poverty rate
UK - 15.7%
US - 13.6%

Low three
Sweden - 6.3%
Finland - 4.8%
Norway - 4.3%




To compare poverty the rates of the US, UK, and Australia with three Scandinavian countries is ridiculous. A lot of it has to do with immigration, both legal and illegal. I would love to see those three countries take on the numbers of immigrants that the US, UK< and Australia do and see what their poverty rates do. Even in the "Poverty Persistence In Sweden" study written by Jörgen Hansen and Roger Wahlberg that came out of the Centre for Economic Policy Research in London, UK, it is immigration that affects their number as well,

quote:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/cpr/ceprdp/4539.html#provider

This Paper analyses the persistence of poverty in Sweden using a hazard rate model based on multiple spells. The model also accounts for unobserved heterogeneity and possibly endogenous initial conditions. We estimate the model on a large representative Swedish panel dataset, LINDA, for the years 1991-2001. The data contains precise information on household disposable income obtained from individual tax files. Poverty is defined using information on annual minimum needs standards determined by the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare. The data indicates that poverty rates are highest for immigrants, especially refugee immigrants, and for households with children. Further, poverty rates declined, both for natives and for immigrants, between 1991 and 2001, partly as a result of improved labour market conditions. The empirical results suggest that there is significant negative duration dependence in both exit and entry hazard rates. Moreover, the transition rates are significantly affected by immigrant status, educational attainment, labour market conditions, age, and family status. Accounting for multiple spells shows that for two-parent families with two children who are represented by a male person, 44% of native households that fall into poverty at any given point in time remain poor in five or more out of the next ten years. For refugee and non-refugee households, the figures are 62% and 50%, respectively.


It is the same as comparing Alaska to the mainland, as that state has, at times, begged for workers, but because of the cold environment they don'y show up. Alaska isn't exactly being over-run by illegal immigration. The same with these Scandinavian nations. Let Sweden, Finland, and Norway take on the per capita yearly legal and illegal immigration that the US, UK, and Australia have and we'll see what they end up with.



 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 07:05 PM
Am I to understand that poverty in the US is acceptable is the levels of poverty are lower than poverty levels in other countries?

Am I to infer that the greatest country in the world's goals should only inch out the next nearest country's goals?

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 07:13 PM
Hey CEEJ, thanks for the info. I must've missed it earlier. And I really wasn't trying to be snide or insincere by my earlier remark, but will admit it was a poor post of no value. I think we can all agree that in any capitalistic society, with America leading the way, that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and that has been borne out over time as evidenced by our shrinking middle class and the ever widening gap between the richest and poorest Americans. There is still room in the middle, but not as much as there once was and it shrinks all the time. I don't think we can just blame the government, it is our whole system and way of life. It's the very thing that has made us so powerful and given us, on the whole, our incredible standard of living. It has it's dark underside. I don't know how one changes that whole system of living and veiwing life and the world, since those that do have so much more than what they need are not likely to give it up. The conclusion I have come to is to do the best I can and help those I come in contact with when I can. I'm open to suggestions.
 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 07:29 PM
quote:
quote:
How do you figure that the crime rates in London are worse than NYC? Maybe pickpocketing, or namecalling, but not violence.


I have not figured anything but stats have revealed exactly that.

Now, you you do allude to a fair point regarding violence. There is lots of crime in the UK but it rarely involves the high level of firearm usage seen in America. A mugger there is much more likely to rely on a knife which is of course less lethal than a gun.

If you want to spin some myth about a poverty free nation, you are better off using Sweden than the UK, MC3.



Ok, where are these stats? I'd like to see this since it seems quite unimaginable to me. I was totally comfortable walking around in London, riding the tube after dark, etc. But I'd never go to certain areas of NYC anytime of day or night.

I never said UK was poverty free...on the contrary, they are just under us, BUT the difference is that their poor don't live in such dire circumstances as ours do. I know several unemployed people there and they certainly don't live in slums or have to do without a whole lot. They also can go to the doctor when they're sick or just need a check up. Their housing is supplied in addition to their monthly income, and they don't have to scrounge around in garbage bins for food. THe one's with children dont' have to worry about raising their kids in dangerous areas either.
THese people I know don't understand how we can allow our citizens to live in squalor when we have so much excess.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 02:11 AM
quote:
I don't think we can just blame the government, it is our whole system and way of life. It's the very thing that has made us so powerful and given us, on the whole, our incredible standard of living. It has it's dark underside. I don't know how one changes that whole system of living and veiwing life and the world, since those that do have so much more than what they need are not likely to give it up. The conclusion I have come to is to do the best I can and help those I come in contact with when I can. I'm open to suggestions.


I say start with taxes. The rich are paying far less in terms of the total cost of government. The rich gain the most as well due to out of control corporate welfare and bail outs to repair damage to the system done by greedy individuals who are apparently above the law. (Thinks S&L bailout, ENRON, BCCS, etc) I also think that any corporation who keeps money off shore to avoid paying taxes should not be allowed to bid on any government contract and should certainly NEVER be given no-bid contracts.

Our military spending needs to reviewed and the waste needs to stop. Our military budget dwarfs the rest of the world's military spending. There have been opportunities to cut back since the ending of the Vietnam War but both Democrats and Republicans have consistently increased spending. The reality is the military industrial complex is lousy with graft and corruption. Those that make the profits have no integrity. They profit from murdering poor people, why would they feel bad about padding costs and skimming off the top? Cronyism and nepotism are the order of the day. "Retired" Generals, Politicians, and former high level bureaucrats now work as lobbyists and salesmen for the corporations that sell the agents of death to the Pentagon.

Many people are afraid to cut back our military budget. Face it, all that spending could not stop commercial aircraft from attacking America. They spend the money on weapons systems that are obsolete before they come on line. Our military spending is buggery of the people of the United States. Much of that money could be spent rebuilding our infrastructure. "Troops" could be trained and provided the skills needed to rebuild the country and they would take those skills back home once their stint was up.

Education in America needs a total overhaul. The reality of the "No Child Left a Dime" program is that the kind of learning needed to pass those tests does not teach a child how to "critically think". Unfortunately the Government would like a population of morons taught to always give the "right" answer and never question Big Brother.

The greedy capitalist pigs that run this country will never willingly provide the poor the opportunity to better themselves. It is their greed that will force change. The exposure of the poor that we are seeing right now will force people to take a harder look at the inequity. Many Americans are a natural catastrophe away from being poverty stricken. The politicians that promise security will soon find that people have a broader definition of the word.

Who am I kidding? It is only middle class America that can demand change. Who among us will do that?

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 08:09 AM
quote:
I hope I am misreading the whole thing.


You are. It is called irony.

quote:
Ok, where are these stats? I'd like to see this since it seems quite unimaginable to me. I was totally comfortable walking around in London, riding the tube after dark, etc. But I'd never go to certain areas of NYC anytime of day or night.


Think about what you are saying. There are rough sections of both cities. London is bigger than New York. Is it not fathomable to you that as a tourist, you simply restricted yourself to safe areas? And would you not do the same in New York? As we all would.


quote:
I never said UK was poverty free...on the contrary, they are just under us, BUT the difference is that their poor don't live in such dire circumstances as ours do.


Their poor deal with unemployment, shoddy housing, drug abuse, violence, etc. So do ours.

quote:
I know several unemployed people there and they certainly don't live in slums or have to do without a whole lot.


I know unemployed people here who do not live in the slums. Where is the relevance? Unemployment is most often a temporary situation, not a life defining state of morass.

quote:
They also can go to the doctor when they're sick or just need a check up.


Yes, that is true. But do we not have something called Medicaid? Or is it Medicare?

quote:
Their housing is supplied in addition to their monthly income, and they don't have to scrounge around in garbage bins for food.


Housing supplied? Council houses which we call projects. Same thing, different word. And there are plenty of homeless scrounging in trash cans over there.

quote:
THe one's with children dont' have to worry about raising their kids in dangerous areas either.


That is simply not true.

quote:
THese people I know don't understand how we can allow our citizens to live in squalor when we have so much excess.


Probably because they are doing much the same although I do not see where we or the Brits are "allowing" anything.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 08:14 AM
Here is a start MC3:

London Crime Soars, Pushing Up Taxes as Blair Prepares Campaign

March 16 (Bloomberg) -- Harriet Sergeant first complained to the police about rising crime in her north London neighborhood. Then she joined 24 neighbors in hiring a security guard, adding 1,000 pounds ($1,911) a year to her cost of living in the world's second-most-expensive city.

Sergeant, 50, a historian, says it's worth paying. ``When we called the police they just weren't interested, so we decided we had to do something to make the area feel safer,'' she says.

Muggings and assaults in London surged 37 percent in the year through March 2004, according to the government-sponsored British Crime Survey. A man was beheaded in north London on March 14 by an axe-wielding assailant who was later arrested. U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair is campaigning for re-election on promises to increase anti-crime spending; London's city tax has soared 69 percent since 2001, partly to pay for more police.

``The police cannot target crime, they are too busy trying to solve incidents that have already happened,'' says Norman Dennis, a lecturer in psychology at Newcastle University and author of ``Cultures and Crimes: Policing in Four Nations.'' ``The situation is getting out of control.''

Law enforcement strategy has become an election issue for Blair's government, which provides the majority of funding for the U.K.'s police forces. Ken Livingstone, London's mayor, has escaped public criticism for rising crime and says he will keep increasing London city property-based taxes to supplement national funds for the police.

Election Issue

Andrew Cooper, a director at Populus, a polling company, says polls show city residents hold Blair, not Livingstone, responsible for the rise in violent crime. ``Londoners feel crime as a big problem, but regard it as a spillover of a national issue,'' says Cooper. ``They do not see it as a problem unique to London demanding a London solution.''

Crime was cited as the most important election issue by 45 percent of voters surveyed by Populus for the London-based Times newspaper, ranking it second behind the country's National Health Service. Populus questioned 1,518 adults on Feb. 4-6. The company says the margin of error for the question on crime is plus or minus 3.6 percentage points.

The number of incidents of violence per 10,000 adults rose to 772 from 565 in London in the year ended March 2004, according to the crime survey. The annual poll questions more than 40,000 randomly selected people about their experiences of crime, including incidents they haven't reported to the police.

`Out of Sight Is Safer'

The police have responded to the rise in drug-related crimes and street muggings with a poster campaign advising Londoners to hide their cash and refrain from using mobile phones in public. The posters, placed on the street and in the London subway, carry the rubric ``Out of Sight Is Safer.''

Brian Paddick, 46, deputy assistant commissioner of London's Metropolitan Police, said in an interview that the posters were part of a wider effort to raise awareness of crime and help residents avoid becoming victims of street theft.

Blair has already faced criticism in Parliament.

``It is true that recorded violent crime is up, but overall, crime is down since we came to power,'' Blair said during Prime Minister's Questions on July 21. Crime levels across the U.K. as a whole have fallen by 30 percent as measured by the British Crime Survey since Labour came to power in 1997.

During a one-day tour of five U.K. towns last month, Blair said that increased funding for ``safer communities'' was one of the six main pledges the Labour Party will offer voters for a possible third term in office. Blair must call the next general election by mid-2006, and members of his party, including Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, indicate the poll probably will be held in May of this year.

Police Funding

More than three-quarters of London's 2.7 billion-pound police budget for the fiscal year beginning in April is provided by the national government. The budget is up 6.4 percent from the previous period. London taxpayers contribute an additional 196 million pounds through one of the two levies that homeowners pay each year.

Livingstone says the city will increase the number of police officers from 30,500 now to 35,000 by 2008 -- and says Londoners should expect to pay more in taxes over his four-year mayoral term ending in 2008 to fund that move.

Employing the extra 4,500 officers will cost more than 100 million pounds each year in salary alone, according to figures from the Metropolitan Police.

No Response

Ed Budden, a commercial-property manager for U.K. bookmaker Coral Ltd., is a recent crime statistic in the London borough of Hackney. Last November, he was mugged twice in six weeks while standing at the bus stop near his apartment, he says. Violent crime rose 3.4 percent in Hackney in 2004, according to police figures.

The first time his assailants snatched his grocery bag and on the second occasion he was beaten by three men who took his cell phone and wallet. Budden, 28, says the police, whom he called both times, recorded only the second incident. When asked to respond, Paddick of the metropolitan force says the police give priority to crimes that are serious or they have a good chance of solving.

``Hiring a guard is great for those that can afford it, but for most people London is already expensive enough,'' says Budden. ``The rest of us need to see more police on the streets. That's why we pay council tax, isn't it?''

This year, Londoners will pay 5.5 percent more in their Greater London Authority property-based tax bill, to an average 255 pounds, according to Livingstone's office. The GLA tax was established in 2001 to support the new office of mayor and the city's elected assembly. That levy is in addition to the council tax set by the city's 33 boroughs, which is tied to property values. This year it averages 908 pounds, the highest rate per dwelling in the U.K.

Cost of Living

The cost of living in London ranks behind only Tokyo, according to an annual survey released by Mercer Human Resource Consulting, which tracks property prices and the cost of basic daily goods such as a cup of coffee and a newspaper.

Livingstone says the increase in police numbers is a move to adopt New York's ``zero-tolerance'' strategy of the 1990s, in which even small infractions were prosecuted as a wide-ranging effort to secure neighborhoods and to jail habitual criminals.

``We have got to get a debate started about bringing zero- tolerance policing to London,'' Livingstone says. ``Tackling the small things that make our lives unacceptable is the best way to break the pattern of crime.''

Livingstone was an opponent of Blair's decision to send U.K. troops to the 2003 Iraq war. A former Labour member of parliament, he was elected mayor as an independent in 2000. He returned to the party last year with Blair's support.

Beat Officers

Ian Blair, the new chief of London's Metropolitan Police, blames a decline in visible policing for the increase in street crime.

Taking officers off the beat ``was a mistake,'' Blair said at a Jan. 14 conference on crime reduction. ``Now we have re-found the idea of the patrolling policeman and are going to use this to get rid of anti-social behavior and make Londoners feel safer.'' He is not related to Prime Minister Blair. The police declined to provide details of past shifts from street police to squad work.

Policing policy in London is complicated by controversy over the way crime levels are calculated. The ``violent crime'' category in the annual government survey of the public includes assaults and muggings but doesn't count murders, rapes, drug arrests or violence against children. Those crimes are recorded by the police as they are reported.

Street Assaults

Newcastle University's Dennis says many crimes, such as sexual assaults and thefts, are never reported, undermining the police figures. ``The way crime is recorded in Britain makes it impossible to tell the true severity of the situation,'' he says.

He also questions whether London will ever have enough police on the street to match New York's crime-fighting capability. New York has one cop for every 202 residents; in London each police officer must guard 236 people.

New York, with a population of 8.1 million, compared with London's 7.2 million, employs 10,000 more police officers than the U.K. capital.

New York has a higher murder rate, though Londoners are more likely to be robbed on the street. In 2003, New York reported 572 murders, compared with 215 for London, according to official police figures from each city. That same year, there were 42,008 robberies in London, compared with 24,105 in New York.

Auxiliary Force

Livingstone has dedicated part of the new funds for 480 additional community-support officers, who patrol the streets yet don't have the power of arrest. While a London police officer can expect to earn 28,388 pounds a year at the start of his career, a support officer receives a maximum of 20,652 pounds. Both wages include a London cost-of-living allowance.

In a London speech on March 9, Prime Minister Blair unveiled a 340-million-pound nationwide neighborhood policing plan and defended the deployment of the auxiliary force, known by their acronym of CSOs.

``CSOs are, I think, a great support in the same way teachers have teaching assistants,'' Blair said, according to the British Broadcasting Corp.

Eli Silverman, a sociology professor at New York-based John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says an auxiliary force of 1,800 can't do the job of fully trained police officers.

``They are additional eyes and ears, which is good, but I don't think they're really going to reduce crime,'' says Silverman, who has met with British law-enforcement officials to discuss New York's crime-fighting measures.

`A Deterrent'

Sergeant, author of the 1991 book ``Shanghai: Collision Point of Cultures 1918-1939,'' says residents of her street in the neighborhood of Little Venice couldn't wait for community support officers. Seven times a week, a guard from security firm 1st Class Protection patrols the street for eight hours, and escorts residents from their cars to their houses after dark.

Steve Sherwood, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police, declined to comment on crime levels in the area patrolled by the protection officer. Official figures show violent crime rose 23 percent in 2004 in the borough of Westminster, which includes Sergeant's neighborhood.

``People mainly employ us as a deterrent,'' says Yoad Perets, 32, 1st Class Protection's operational manager. Perets says his firm has been hired to patrol nine more London neighborhoods in the past year, adding to the three it already guarded.



To contact the reporter on this story:
Claire Shoesmith in London at cshoesmith@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: March 15, 2005 19:07 EST

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 08:20 AM
London crime SOS to New York

Londoners are now six times as likely to be robbed or assaulted as New Yorkers, while the rise in Yardie gang crime has been blamed for a spate of gun battles in broad daylight on the capital's streets - the most recent on Friday morning ended with the body of a man being dumped in a bullet-ridden car ouside a police station.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4353346-102279,00.html




 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 08:57 AM
quote:
I hope I am misreading the whole thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



You are. It is called irony.


Real irony deals in extreme concepts of truth. The suggestion that some one claimed that there is any country without poverty, or that all countries with the exception of the US, are without poverty, are both ridiculous. It is not ironic, it is a clear, simplistic misrepresentation of the discussion.

Peace.

Erik





[Edited on 9/13/2005 by CEEJ]

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:06 AM
quote:
Unfortunately the Government would like a population of morons taught to always give the "right" answer and never question Big Brother.


You live in a scary world. I'm glad I don't live there.

quote:
It is only middle class America that can demand change. Who among us will do that?

I think Doug has the right idea when he says:
quote:
The conclusion I have come to is to do the best I can and help those I come in contact with when I can.

We can't force a wholesale change of thought on our entire population. It takes all of us to try to influence those with whom we come in contact.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:07 AM
quote:
It is not ironic, it is a clear, simplistic misrepresentation of the discussion.


Well I cannot help it if that is the way you are reading it. Since we both agree that every nation has some level of poverty, I suggest we move on. There is poverty and it must be solved by sensitive and timely solutions rather than an endless paradoxical loop of semantical statements.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:21 AM
Since KR is an authority on how awful it is to live in the UK, I'll refrain now from attempting to express my own personal observations or opinions resulting from thorough discussions on this partiuclar subject with friends I have living in the UK, or ones who have lived there and now reside in the US. Dumb me, I figured these folks might know a bit more about the subject than us Americans who've only visited and read news reports, but I guess I'm a complete moron for thinking this way. lolol
Although these people probably know what their own situation is better than he does, it's apparent he will not relent in correcting me at all turns. lolol Ok, dude, you win, I give up lolol
It's difficult to have a civil conversation with you KR.

I am aware of how people in other countries percieve the US, though and to be honest, I'm rather ashamed of it. I would hope that this horrible tragedy will wake us up from our denial and we will begin to take better care of our own people with more compassion and less blame put upon them from those of us who are fortunate to have more than we need.

I may not have the answers but at least I have the right attitude, which is more than alot of people around here.

I think Billy is right on with his observations. And CEEJ is right...irony is different than false statements that were obviously made in this thread.

[Edited on 9/13/2005 by musichick3]

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:33 AM
quote:
It's difficult to have a civil conversation with you KR.


Because you fill your posts with falsehoods and insults and then cry foul when someone else calls you on it. You demand evidence and then when it is given, you do an exemplary job of ignoring it.

If you want civility, try practicing it yourself. If you start a thread such as this, and it had the potential to be a great one, do not express shock that someone <gasp> disagrees with you.

Finally, try to understand that the view of a few people you happen to know in the UK is evidence of nothing. The United Kingdom, like most places, is a complex country full of different perspectives, experiences, and realities.

Cheers.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:36 AM
I changed my post for ya there, KR lolol

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:38 AM
quote:
Hey CEEJ, thanks for the info. I must've missed it earlier. And I really wasn't trying to be snide or insincere by my earlier remark, but will admit it was a poor post of no value.
No problem. Thanks for explaining that.
quote:
I think we can all agree that in any capitalistic society, with America leading the way, that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and that has been borne out over time as evidenced by our shrinking middle class and the ever widening gap between the richest and poorest Americans.
Absolutely, and social and economic policy set by the government has a siginificant impact on it.
quote:
There is still room in the middle, but not as much as there once was and it shrinks all the time.
I agree, and I see this a major problem, but apparently many do not, since they continue to vote for individuals who support polices that exacerbate the situation.
quote:
I don't think we can just blame the government, it is our whole system and way of life.
The government is the mechanism we have to balance societal power and interests. The government is reflective of our will, so of course we cannot just blame government... after all, we are government.
quote:
It's the very thing that has made us so powerful and given us, on the whole, our incredible standard of living.
It has made some powerful and an given some an incredible standard of living.
quote:
It has it's dark underside.
We allow for it to have a dark underside.
quote:
I don't know how one changes that whole system of living and viewing life and the world, since those that do have so much more than what they need are not likely to give it up.
It was not so long ago we a had a more powerful, thriving middle class. Economic, social and tax policy changes have helped erode tht middle class. New policies/changes can help stem that trend.
quote:
The conclusion I have come to is to do the best I can and help those I come in contact with when I can. I'm open to suggestions.
Agreed and well put. But individual initiative can be multiplied exponentially through organization, whether private (corporate & non-profit) or public (government) in nature.

Peace.

Erik





[Edited on 9/13/2005 by CEEJ]

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:55 AM
quote:
quote:
It's difficult to have a civil conversation with you KR.


Because you fill your posts with falsehoods and insults and then cry foul when someone else calls you on it. You demand evidence and then when it is given, you do an exemplary job of ignoring it.

If you want civility, try practicing it yourself. If you start a thread such as this, and it had the potential to be a great one, do not express shock that someone <gasp> disagrees with you.

Finally, try to understand that the view of a few people you happen to know in the UK is evidence of nothing. The United Kingdom, like most places, is a complex country full of different perspectives, experiences, and realities.

Cheers.


I don't recall insulting anyone in this thread KR.....you have though. I saw your "evidence" but until you posted it, you didn't show any for me to ignore. That's why I asked you to do so.

Maybe you should also heed your own advice above as well, KR. The UK is complex and there are bound to be different experiences, perspectives and realities. That can go both ways.

As far as falsehoods...I'm ready for you to expose me to the forum...go ahead, what have I said that is completely false? Most of what I have said is what I've been told or what I've read and it's my opinion. You can call me dumb or misunderstood, but I assure you, I'm not making any of this up.


I still for the life of me don't understand why you continue to attack and insult me with such vengence when you get a chance on these forum discussions. Usually I avoid adressing you till you say something provocative, directed at me. It's like you bait me and then wait to pounce as soon as I respond. What's your beef with me anyway? I'd really like to know what it is about me that sets you off on such vile tangents anyway.


[Edited on 9/13/2005 by musichick3]

[Edited on 9/13/2005 by musichick3]

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 09:58 AM
quote:
I'm ready for you to expose me to the forum...go ahead, what have I said that is completely false?


You said that I said the UK was an awful place to live. That is quite untrue. All I said was that it had its own problems with poverty. Furthermore, I love the UK. Great place.

 

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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 10:02 AM
Before that, I mean...you speak as though most of my posts on this thread (yea, let's just stick to this one, despite the fact that you say that I "fill my posts with falsehoods and insults", indicating that I tend to do this regularly). What do you mean by that? I think I'm owed an explanation with some examples if you're going to accuse me of such things.


 

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"Whatever happiness is in the world has arisen from a wish for the welfare of others; whatever misery there is has arisen from indulging self"

 
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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/13/2005 at 10:09 AM
BTW, council houses are nothing like our slums. Most UK citizens live in them all over the country.

 

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"Whatever happiness is in the world has arisen from a wish for the welfare of others; whatever misery there is has arisen from indulging self"

 
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