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Author: Subject: Poverty is our worst enemy

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 09:04 AM
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What if you didn't have to worry about getting ahead, etc, and could just do the work you love?


Who is stopping anyone from doing that? You can do whatever you want in this country, that's what makes it one of the most dangerous places and the best place. You can do the work you love, you can even do pretty well at it, i.e the Allman Brothers Band, they do what they love and they've "gotten ahead," (whatever ones definition is of that). On the other hand, if you want to have seven children, when you probably don't have the means to have one, and you are a single parent, I call that poor decision making. The most dangerous thing, as we have seen in the last few weeks is to be totally dependent on the government, standing with your hand out. I hold the goverment and the people themselves responsible for perpetuating this, the people are utterly dependent on the governement because they have made poor decisions for themselves.

Yes, education is the key, but we've poured billions into the educational system, and what has happened, nothing, because the teachers can't teach because they have to play cop, parent, psycholigist, and lawyer in the classroom as opposed to be a teacher. At some point there should be some personal accountability. There has been a major breakdown in the American family. The overhwhelming majority of families I've seen on the news over the past weeks displaced by the hurricane are families headed by women. Where are the men? Parents are the first teachers and there are quite a few absentee parents in certain communitites.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 09:58 AM
Great post Jim! Integrity, drive, and ambition will take you a long way in this world. That is sorely missing in many circles these days. Impossible to legislate those!

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 10:53 AM
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I will not accept that we value material things over human life. That to me is a very narrow minded view of the world and the people in it. I believe that people are inherently good and giving.



People are inherently good and giving. But if you think we value human life over material goods, that is a very narrow-minded view. Step back and look at the big picture. Millions of people every year spend billions of dollars on things they don't need, while 1 in 8 people in this country live in poverty. We value the human lives of those who look like us, who live in our house, who live on our street, maybe in our neighborhood. The furthur the people live away from us, or the less they look like us, the less we care. We are good and giving, so we open our wallets when everyone else is doing it, and it makes us feel good. But how many would give up the trappings of successful life in America, to truly change the fabric of our society.

As you say, TopDroog, it will take generations. This species isn't finished evolving by any means. But someone has to start talking about it. Those who immediately start worrying about how much they stand to lose to those they think might not work as hard are the ones who will have to change their attitude for it to work.

BTW, no one has to tell me anything about what hard work and ambition can achieve. But anyone who things we all have the same opportunities in this country have their heads in the sand.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 10:55 AM
I agree with Allen that if people were all treated with respect and didn't feel like they were being repressed, their attitudes would change over time. But attitude change has to start from the top (most priveledged) down, not the other way around. That's why these programs Randy speaks of aren't working. We have to empower the people who are living among the ones who need help to get these people to want to change....Just like in Iraq, we are seeing, you can't force people to change by force.
Right now, the ghetto people have such a poor outlook on they way they're viewed by society and feel there's no way out of their situation, they have no ambition or motivation to want to change their lifestyles. People are so easily brainwashed into having certain views of their place and it's very hard to change that...they don't necessarily trust the people who come to help them out of their situations, as we've seen very evident this past couple of weeks in New Orleans and again, as in Iraq. It's psychology, not logic.

[Edited on 9/11/2005 by musichick3]

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 10:58 AM
quote:
The most dangerous thing, as we have seen in the last few weeks is to be totally dependent on the government, standing with your hand out. I hold the goverment and the people themselves responsible for perpetuating this, the people are utterly dependent on the governement because they have made poor decisions for themselves.



"The people" did have help with this one. Basically this docility was a trait that was bred for. If you were too smart etc. you didn't live to long....And the "fathers" were not around because they were generally separated from their family. Telling people to "get over" slavery isn't quite that easy. There really are deep and lasting scars that still need to be fixed.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:05 AM
greetings:

I believe this isn't gonna fly to well, but it is reality. When something is subsidized it flourishes. Hence when you subsidize poverty, it will flourish. The biggest problems in urban, rural, wherever impoverished areas is what the people see there. Kids who were fortunate enough to get scholarships and worked hard, often enough still end up with mediocre jobs. The ones who worked there whole lives are still there. Then they see the ones who sling dope and drive fancy big cars with 20 something inch rims, who are emulating the lyrical content of the music they listen to. Here is the choice...work hard and possibily not achieve the deisred effect or standard desired by society or more important the people in thier own enviroment. Or sling dope, have the ride, the bling, the ho's, the bank, and that so damn important street credibility. The whole while be representing your peeps and the hood/bario/area code/ whatever. The choice is the easy one folks. Most people will choose the easy way, especially if they have something there to fall back on. Which is hook up with a girl with lots of kids that are not yours and get that check. Untill you have one with her and then its time to bounce and find another one. You can offer programs to help people but a high majority will only see it as as burden to the lifestyle they already have and fail to see and/or utilize it as a benifit to them. Much less a way out of the "everybody owes me something" mentality.

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:17 AM
I'm not talking about "programs." I'm talking about a shift in consciousness in our society. I'm talking about people changing how they think about all other people, not just the ones who meet their "worthiness" standard, whether it be race, gender, ambition, intelligence, income, or whatever standard you use to decide which other people have value. It starts in people's hearts, not in a government committee room.

Brother James, Jesus came onto this planet to be a living example of what I'm talking about, and nothing more. We completely missed his lesson, and turned Him into a Savior from feared retribution from God. I wish we had listened a littlle more closely.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:20 AM
quote:


BTW, no one has to tell me anything about what hard work and ambition can achieve. But anyone who things we all have the same opportunities in this country have their heads in the sand.



Totally agreed. There's so much competition at the high school level to outdo each other now, let alone in the workforce. Unlesss you want to flip burgers for a living. And then to further that, some people just aren't smart enough to exceed in what they want to do.....

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:34 AM
Competition. That's a huge problem in this country. The whole idea that I should work as hard as I can to improve my lifestyle, at the expense of anyone else who is only trying to do the same, is completely counter-productive in terms of our advancement as a nation.

Competition is a primitive characteristic that we needed to get us out of caves and into houses. At some point we'lll hopefully realize that cooperation trumps competition every time. It blows my mind that we have an entire sub-culture in America that thinks the proper way to raise your children is to start as early as you can to teach them to do the things they're going to need, to get into the best schools, so they can have the best chance of positioning themselves to own the most stuff, at the expense of everyone else. Oh sure, they'll be generous, and open their checkbook when a disaster happens, but they're also being trained from birth not to let "those kinds of people" get to close to you. But it still all boils down to having the best chance of owning the most stuff, and that's why I say we value material good over human life.

Not a single one of us will take a single thing with us when we die, and we wouldn't want to anyway, but still we have built a civilization around owning more and more, bigger and better, stuff. I swear to God I saw a man standing next to his wife on TV, down in Louisiana saying he had lost everything, everything, everything. His wife looked up at him, and said, "We still have each other." He didn't even look at her, but just kind of shrugged, and said something like, yeah, whatever. Unbelievable. This hurricane is the best thing that could have happened to him, and I hope he learns the lesson it came to teach him.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:37 AM
quote:
Competition. That's a huge problem in this country. The whole idea that I should work as hard as I can to improve my lifestyle, at the expense of anyone else who is only trying to do the same, is completely counter-productive in terms of our advancement as a nation.

Competition is a primitive characteristic that we needed to get us out of caves and into houses. At some point we'lll hopefully realize that cooperation trumps competition every time. It blows my mind that we have an entire sub-culture in America that thinks the proper way to raise your children is to start as early as you can to teach them to do the things they're going to need, to get into the best schools, so they can have the best chance of positioning themselves to own the most stuff, at the expense of everyone else. Oh sure, they'll be generous, and open their checkbook when a disaster happens, but they're also being trained from birth not to let "those kinds of people" get to close to you. But it still all boils down to having the best chance of owning the most stuff, and that's why I say we value material good over human life.

Not a single one of us will take a single thing with us when we die, and we wouldn't want to anyway, but still we have built a civilization around owning more and more, bigger and better, stuff. I swear to God I saw a man standing next to his wife on TV, down in Louisiana saying he had lost everything, everything, everything. His wife looked up at him, and said, "We still have each other." He didn't even look at her, but just kind of shrugged, and said something like, yeah, whatever. Unbelievable. This hurricane is the best thing that could have happened to him, and I hope he learns the lesson it came to teach him.


I agree with every word of that - where did you copy that from?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:40 AM
Change of attitude is the key, ultimately. People have to stop thinking so greedily and start caring more for the less fortunate, regardless of who's fault it is that they are in their situations...I'm grateful for knowing people who didn't have that attitude toward me and my children, that I didn't deserve any help becuase I made mistakes along the way. It was impossible to make ends meet on my income at times, and I was full of despair because I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I know I couldn't have done it without the unselfishness of others. Not everyone has family/friends who can help them out of desparation and destitution. When kids grow up this way all their lives, they can't automatically see any other way of living.
I worked with ghetto kids who were in trouble in California years ago, and the concept of being able to live in a nice home with a car, a job and happy home life was so foreign to them. It wasn't their fault and even when they were taken out of the environment and placed into decent neighborhood foster homes, they still didn't think it would ever apply to them to have that lifestlye.


 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:46 AM
That scenario of the man with his wife, etc....hits the nail on the head. I bet most people here have never had to start over compeltely from scratch, with just the clothes on their backs. It's so easy for us to judge others when we have never had to be in their situation. Allen is correct, competition, for some reason, is believed to be the backbone of our capitalist society, which it is, but apparently it's not working when we have so many poor people living in squalar while the rich keep getting richer. And why do the rich keep getting richer? Becuase they take advantage of the poor, that's why. It's all about who can push who out of their way to reach the pinnacle of wealth. That's sad.... I hear people go on and on about drive, ambition, competition...but for what? In the end, what is that going to earn you when you die?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:46 AM
Hey Allen:

Check it out, I am no better than anyone else. Never have been never will. What other people think doesn't really amount to anythng if you have a certain mentality about yourself. If someone doesn't wanna put forth an effort to change themselves, program or whatever, then they don't need worry about the "consciencious" of society as a whole regarding them. They made a choice and will have to live by the consequences thereof.

As to Jesus... I chose this path after witnessing the change in peoples lives from what they were before to the way they were then and are now. My fear of God is in reverence and not in the way you stated about retribution. I am not a religious person by any means, I have a personal relationship with Christ. Man has corrupted even that by labeling everything with denominations and putting thier own spin on His Word, making it all more complex than it ever was meant to be. You believe what you like, live by that choice, and be accountable for that decision like we all must do. Not gonna be bothered
debating with you about something that can't be changed. Our beliefs and the things one will submit to.

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 11:50 AM
quote:


I agree with every word of that - where did you copy that from?


Out trolling again, ct? I already told you, some people actually think for thmeselves, and then they are able to write down what they think. I suggested you try it, but apparently you'd rather repeat a line that wasn't funny or clever the first time you used it. Did you just cut-and-paste from the first time you used this reply?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 01:54 PM
37 million live below the poverty level but, a mere 560,000 make a million or more a year. Those 560,000 control the majority of the Nation's wealth. They are also the beneficiaries of the Bush tax cuts.

Is anyone on this forum one of the 560,000? Does anyone think they have a chance of joining?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 07:48 PM
quote:
37 million live below the poverty level but, a mere 560,000 make a million or more a year. Those 560,000 control the majority of the Nation's wealth. They are also the beneficiaries of the Bush tax cuts.

Is anyone on this forum one of the 560,000? Does anyone think they have a chance of joining?

Personally, I don't care if I join them or not. My wife started out together working for pretty low paying jobs in community mental health for years and years, and though we didn't have much,we liked what we did and were pretty fulfilled in our work. Then we decided to try our hands at business and have worked hard to build our little business. We like where we live, our jobs, and most importantly we have our family. There is really nothing more that we need.

 

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  posted on 9/11/2005 at 09:49 PM
Exactly. Not everyone has the same opportunities, but everyone has opportunities. so how about you Billy? Tell us how you hauled yourself up from the depths. Tell us about how proud you are of yourself for having done so.
 
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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 03:09 AM
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Exactly. Not everyone has the same opportunities, but everyone has opportunities. so how about you Billy? Tell us how you hauled yourself up from the depths. Tell us about how proud you are of yourself for having done so.


Financially? I could have done better. I could have done worst. This isn't about me.

I'm not proud of a country that consistently provides welfare to corporations and tax cuts to the rich but won't provide health care for children. I'm not proud of how our system of capitalism is more focused on greed than innovation. I'm troubled that so many of my fellow Americans do not see how our system of capitalism trumps democracy and is wholly incompatible with the myth of American freedom.

The gap between the rich and poor in this country is wider than ever. Individual success stories are great but I'd rather here a story about how people joined together and lifted every American out of poverty.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 05:48 AM
quote:
quote:
Exactly. Not everyone has the same opportunities, but everyone has opportunities. so how about you Billy? Tell us how you hauled yourself up from the depths. Tell us about how proud you are of yourself for having done so.


Financially? I could have done better. I could have done worst. This isn't about me.

I'm not proud of a country that consistently provides welfare to corporations and tax cuts to the rich but won't provide health care for children. I'm not proud of how our system of capitalism is more focused on greed than innovation. I'm troubled that so many of my fellow Americans do not see how our system of capitalism trumps democracy and is wholly incompatible with the myth of American freedom.

The gap between the rich and poor in this country is wider than ever. Individual success stories are great but I'd rather here a story about how people joined together and lifted every American out of poverty.


While there is a gap between lower earning and the super rich, I suspect a good majority of people fall in between somewhere. From my travels to other countries I can tell you that from what I saw it is either one or the other, very poor or very comfortable. I didn't think we have the extreme gap other countries do.

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 06:21 AM
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Tau, serious question here. Would you say that everybody has the opportunity to raise themselves above the poverty level? How about people born into that situation with learning disabilities or physical handicaps. Or home situations that are so effed up that the child has no role model?


I believe I mention handicaps earlier in the thread. I believe that in most cases, much of the opportunity afforded is helped or thwarted by choices made individually.

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 10:00 AM
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I'm not proud of a country that consistently provides welfare to corporations and tax cuts to the rich but won't provide health care for children. I'm not proud of how our system of capitalism is more focused on greed than innovation. I'm troubled that so many of my fellow Americans do not see how our system of capitalism trumps democracy and is wholly incompatible with the myth of American freedom.

The gap between the rich and poor in this country is wider than ever. Individual success stories are great but I'd rather here a story about how people joined together and lifted every American out of poverty.


This is exactly the way I feel, BB. We call ourselves a country who sticks together, but we are a country of individuals who compete with each other to have what we want, with no regard for those who do without so we've have the things we want. And we say it is because we have more drive, more ambition, more intelligence, and it is really about fear. Fear that I might lose if someone else gains. We're a sick society, socially primitive, while technologically advancing. Those on the religious right claim God's mandate to kill thousands and ignore the poor in their own country. May God have mercy on their empty souls.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 12:46 PM
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Tau, serious question here. Would you say that everybody has the opportunity to raise themselves above the poverty level? How about people born into that situation with learning disabilities or physical handicaps. Or home situations that are so effed up that the child has no role model?


Tau is lucky he was smart enough (obviously, by his ability to read/write/formulate intelligent opinions on things as he has demonstrated here) to get where he's gotten today. Some people just aren't. I wish everyone had the 'wherewithall' to motivate themselves or find some inspiration from a kind soul along the way, or an organization or theraputic program or mentor of some sort, but that's not a common scenairo as we all have witnessed. I would guess for every person who pulls themselves from the depths of desapir and poverty, there are thousands who don't. Just like small business owners, everyone knows how difficult it is to be successful. Hard work and luck are usually involved from what I hear. Sometimes it's not that the people don't work hard enough when their business fails, it's just one of those economic things. If people would stop trying to blame the poor for their plight, we might be able to help uplift everyone. Wouldn't that be much better than complaining about them and blaming them? Crime would go down, people would be less prejudice against each other, anger and violence would be rare instead of commmonplace. It's amazing how other countries who aren't as economically powerful, but who honor everyone as though they are important to their society have less crime problems than we do....why do you think that is? We've got to stop treating the poor like a disease in this country one of these days, or it will prove to be our downfall. It's so ironic that we claim to be a Christian nation while we let people suffer. It's real hard to justify to my friends in other countries. We have so many good people and good things in the US, why can't we see what's right in front of us???

[Edited on 9/12/2005 by musichick3]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 12:51 PM

While there is a gap between lower earning and the super rich, I suspect a good majority of people fall in between somewhere. From my travels to other countries I can tell you that from what I saw it is either one or the other, very poor or very comfortable. I didn't think we have the extreme gap other countries do.


I've only been to the UK and Canada and I can tell you, their "poor" don't suffer like ours do. They still maintain a healthy middle class and upper class as well, but they take care of their people and treat them with dignity, even the unemployed of society. They also don't treat the poor with disdain and prejudice like we tend to here. They live in decent environments and are able to afford what they need to survive with DIGNITY and compassion from others. I've seen it first hand so I know what I'm talking about.

[Edited on 9/12/2005 by musichick3]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 12:52 PM
quote:
quote:
Tau, serious question here. Would you say that everybody has the opportunity to raise themselves above the poverty level? How about people born into that situation with learning disabilities or physical handicaps. Or home situations that are so effed up that the child has no role model?


I believe I mention handicaps earlier in the thread. I believe that in most cases, much of the opportunity afforded is helped or thwarted by choices made individually.



Tau, are you speaking from experience working with underprivledged people in ghettos or just personal opinion about your personal experience when you were down on your luck?

 

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  posted on 9/12/2005 at 12:53 PM
I still think it is up to us as individuals to help those we can in our sphere of influence and in our communities. Waiting for the government, or someone else, to do it is just wishful thinking. And I agree with johnwott about other countries and their standards of living. We do have a "safety net" for poor families and healthcare with medicaid, although there is too large a group that falls between the cracks that I would like to see addressed. I'd still much rather live here than anywhere else and work on improving what we have. And I don't see the way things are, and have been throughout human history, changing dramatically in the future. all the more reason to take it upon ourselves as individuals to do what we can.
 
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